on the minmatar side u need to upgrade damage on autocannons , a tempest with 800mm and no gyros will do 500 dps wich for a bs is fail ..i mean srsly even a thorax doese 500 dps not to mention tempest has double dmg bonus even hurricane doese more dmg then a tempest ...if you fit 2x gyros dps goese to 760 but u cant armor buff it not enough slots..and if you would consider to shield buff it ...it wont be as good enough as its counterpars .........................

I think in the Pest vs Gal boats comparison the problem lies in the overcorrection of gal boats on their first pass.

Hyperion has everything pest has to offer + more. There is an illusion that assumes AC's outrange Blasters. A Neutron blaster with Null ammo outdps's a pest with barrage up to 25k (30k if both ships have two te's). Tempest is 26m/s(1067vs 1041) faster while hype is more agile. Hyp has same amount of med slots and higher base shield. Hyp has more low slots and higher base armor AND rep bonus. Oh it also has a full drone bay.....with spares!!

Same mobility
Better DMG
Better DMG projection at intended ranges
Better Tank (Both shield and armor)
Better Drones

What does pest have? A second neut.....and capless guns.

Still..it is not pests fault. The new gal boats are just too powerful.

Can you increase base PG to around 18k. This will let us mount 1400's with a semi-decent armor tank. That way we just might find a niche for our tempest: Armored Alpha

That is a awkward comparison mainly because *grasp* isnt the tempest equal to the mega? so compare those two and see.

Well because one its tier2 and the other is tier 3? I know they are going to destroy the tiers but they still exist and by that i mean that hyperion should be compared to the maelstrom so his argument is a bit naive.

Just for clarification i think the tempest is underpowred but comparing it against a hype it is not the way to go.Tempest should be rupture big daddy , full damage fast with a ****** tank.

Your basically proving my point. Blaster damage is so much higher than autocannons on purpose, the only real way it begins to look competitive is when you compare shield with armour fits.

Exactly why are you comparing an Attack bc to a combat one? Why don't you compare it's stats to the megathron then see how well it stacks up to it's actual class

thats just uber nonsense

every ship is compareable with every other if you define the intended use and then compare every aspect.
so the coparison between hyperion and tempest is completely viable until you proove he missed something.

to make it even clearer why would anyone fly a ship thats outclassed by another in every or near every aspect?

Even with 1 gyro on the tempest vs 5 turrets and 2 mfs's on the megathron - the megathron still does more dps at point blank, is still faster and more agile, but this time with 10% more EHP.

'Sup, Kai? Long time, man...

Anyway, I'm finding myself less opposed to the 7/6/6 concept than I was initially. I'd forgotten about the micro jumpdrive, which is definitely a worthy use of that extra slot in an armor configuration.

However, the ship still needs more DPS to become competitive. Ideally, I'd like to see a speed increase and a DPS boost of some sort. At the same time, I'd like to see the Tempest keep the ability to field two neutralizers. As such, I think it should go the Hyperion route and drop to 5 turrets, but increase either the damage or RoF bonus to compensate (and gain DPS in the process).

Actually, the Hyperion LOST DPS, it did not gain DPS. What it gained was keeping its valuable mid and not losing a BUNCH of DPS while gaining a low.

I think 7/6/6 isn't necessarily a bad idea though.

or just nerf the mael
like 5% rof bonus to 4% would be in line with rokh/abaddon nerf

I cant see why nerfing the mael is not the best sollution here, you are arguing that the tempest is bad cause the mael is better--> make the mael little weaker ,could be done easily, It is the only tier3 bs doesnt get a change ,so do it.

Large AC dps is OK. THe problemis that the tempest has less low slots to fit damage mods and less drones than its competition. That results in a final HUGE DPS difference.

Hi guys

We're making a couple small changes for the Tempest and the Typhoon, I'm telling you about them!

For the Tempest, when we said it was going to be Minmatar's second attack ship instead of combat, we moved the stats to somewhere inbetween for some reason. So now I'm going to finish the job.

Tempest:

127 Max velocity (+7)

.119 Agility (-.001)

6800 Shield hp (-200)

7000 Amor hp (-300)

This means the Tempest will still have more base hitpoints than it does currently on TQ, and it will also have slightly above average hp for an attack battleship, which we feel is warranted by being a little weaker in some other respects. In trade, it now goes much faster. With one nano and no implants or links, it goes 1251m/sec. It will feel a lot like a sort of 'heavy battlecruiser' for many purposes. I hope this direction is fun and rewarding and makes the ship stand out.

For the Typhoon, we are making smaller changes.

6 Turret slots (+1)

100600000 mass, (-3000000)

It didn't make a lot of sense to have 5 turrets and 6 launchers, especially when the Navy version is 6/6. The mass change is minor but it brings the mass a little closer to its attack BS bretheren.

Thanks for the feedback!

EDIT - also Rise, please give the Tempest some extra PG and CPU, it is difficult to fit this thing, and impossible if you want to use T2 1400mm artillery unless you fit nothing in the high utility slots. CPU is lacking for a close range Autocannon fit with Torpedos, but the PG is the biggest problem for fitting any decent artillery ship. Will only be able to use 1200mm II at best if the PG is not addressed.

There CCP there! Proof absolute and above doubt. Even Naomi Knight said its a subpar minamtar ship. The most iconocrastic minmatar hates that exagerates 1 mmillion times all the capabilities ofminmatar ship.

If that person says its subpar. its decided..

CCP RISe, CCP Fozzie, you failed , and failed pretty hard.

Pay attention to what corp and alliance I am . You shoudl remember us from fanfest when CCP announced us as 1st alliance in damage during wars. We are Almsot the definition of small scale PVP. And The tempest is HORRIBLE for us, the megatron, hyperion, armageddon, dominix are all better for us.

I think part of the problem is that both of these ships (the Tempest more than the Typhoon even) cater to a play style that isn't as common as large scale fleets or PVE. I'm not sure its possible to expand the Tempest into more large scale viability without making it too strong in other areas.

The range advantage oF AC is gone sicne the Blasters revamp. The AC are only better after ranges they are doing under half their dps. In other words, ranges where you would have been better flying somethign entirely different from the start. That measn FAIL.

Yeah I know they would have to use the same standard they used with Gallente ships. And we cannot have that right?

Those 4 tech-1 battleshipthreads...

Amarr: Our ships are bad because we can't run level 4s perfectly with those cap issues!
Gallente: Our ships are bad for level 4s!
Caldari: Raven does to little damage to L4 rats!
Minmatarr: Need a third battleship!

It sounds like a lot of winmatar whining comes from mostly pvp-people posting here...

You might want to look at this in percentage terms - it's a +5.5% buff to velocity, which is not trivial considering it was already a fairly fast BS.

One thing i disagree, that he has a great approach. He is standarizing thinks. Like narrowing ships on these attack and combat roels, ignoreing the racial identities in favor of that.

Ships need their personal identities. So normalizing the signature of the ships size just for the sake of nromalization is not a good approach. It leaves the game in a poor state. Richness comes from diversity

Again, don't worry, if Tempest is clearly broken after Odyssey, we'll fix it.

Second The boost on the range of Blasters simply has cut any range advantage of the tempest over the gallente ships inside the disruptor range. That by itself has cut one of the roles of the ship.

If you want the tempest to be a mobile battleship it needs to be close to typhoon in align time. Speed is irrelevant if take syou so long to accelerate that you cannot change directions and be effective in a proper fight with more targets than 1v1

@CCP Rise, how about giving the Tempest an extra Mid slot.
8/6/6, keep it's high mass, keep it's ****** capacitor, keep it's shite power grid and cpu, it's 2 damage bonuses on 6 that aren't worth 1, keep the fact that the raven and typhoon do substantially more dps outside neut range, and that the megathron and hyperion do more within neut range.

Aww you guys spotted it so quick!

I kind of finalized it right before I left the office today so I figured I would post tomorrow =P But yes, as you can see in the OP we adjusted the mass of the Tempest down to 99500000 and the agility down to .116. This is actually a small change that resulted from a fairly detailed talk with Fozzie about the state of the Tempest heading for Odyssey. We both feel that this version looks solid for this release, and so there shouldn't be any more tweaks until after we've seen the aftermath of the entire battleship rebalance.

Thanks for the help, we'll talk again after release =)

As a new player who was looking forward to training up for a phoon because of it's uniqueness and versatility I have to say these changes have made me lose interest in the ship. I'm really hoping they don't touch the navy issue so I can still fly an old style phoon. It went from 3 weapon systems (drones, missiles, projectiles) to just 1. That drone bay got smashed with a sledgehammer =/

It looks like I was and... They've turned the Navy Typhoon into the Typhoon. It's loosing a low slot?

Looks like I'll be canceling after all :/

Edit: Accounts canceled. I may be a drama queen, but I'm true to my word.

Oh my, what have you done to the Typhoon?

When looking at the bonuses a ship has do not think that a ship should only have two bonuses. Consider what can actually be used. Also when the weapon systems are split the pilot must choose which one to focus on with damage boosting modules.

The Typhoon can safely be given multiple weapon bonuses and still be balanced because they can't be completely utilised at the same time (see Gnosis).

Having a 6 turret, 6 launcher ability does unbalance the ship. It makes it a do whatever you want with it. It's supposed to have split weapon systems and the pilot must make a hard choice of what to sacrifice. The old change from a 4/4 to a 5/5 was cool. Just leave the standard Typhoon at 5/5, and give it back its drone bay. Maybe leave the 6/6 as an improvement given to the Fleet Issue.

The additional mid slot is nice. But why does the Fleet Issue lose it's bonus low?

I would like to see something like this:

Typhoon
+4% to Cruise and Torpedo launcher damage
+4% Cruise Missile and Torpedo explosion velocity

+4% to Large Projectile Turret rate of fire
+6% Large Projectile Turret tracking speed

Slot layout: 8H, 5M(+1), 7L; 5 turrets , 5 launchers
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 175

Typhoon Fleet Issue
+5% to Cruise and Torpedo launcher damage
+5% Cruise Missile and Torpedo explosion velocity

+5% to Large Projectile Turret rate of fire
+7.5% Large Projectile Turret tracking speed

Slot layout: 8H, 5M(+1), 8L; 6 turrets(+1) , 6 launchers(+1)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 200

They're not rare though. You see a lot of them flying about in high sec.

Liking Typhoon changes (similarly Fleet Typhoon boost for those with the mad skills :P), also assume it has a new model in the pipeline for the future for the new Minmatar aesthetic which we're slowly seeing roll out?